I still prefer the .45. I sure do love 45acp though. G19 vs custom 1911 equals a big price difference. Lumpy Rutherford's Instagram, Twitter & Facebook on IDCrawl I have owned all of the above calibers plus.In S&W, Glock, Sig.CZ,Remington,Beretta.I have taken bob cats,coyotes Jack rabbits Badger with all. While massive trauma to the circulatory system can cause incapacitation, this takes time. I am just way more comfortable with the way it shoots. In other words, negative acceleration and a non-linear path are both occurring. Request a quote for the most accurate & reliable non-lethal training, A shootout that killed multiple FBI agents underscores the need for cops to use bullets that will neutralize an adversary as quickly as possible. and love a SA trigger. I like to shoot three-four people a weektime permitting, of course. Maybe .22 LR? With the spine on the backside with the arteries running along it, coupled with the obesity of the fast food hoodlum, that penetration was considered more key. I dont plan on using a handgun for long distance shooting. Riley, love your artical. This is exactly what I said above. The SEALS sure like their 45 acp, Mark 24 pistols (HK45 compact). My partner and I got to the apartment and the door was open. I am at a loss for words as I read the above two paragraphs like literally at a loss for words. The projectile tears through the body causing tissue damage and creating a wound channel. I am sorry for your incounter. Back then we all agreed the larger rounds had better stopping power. The ambulance took him away. I am a classic ). Missing it not an option. The .9mm, took3 rounds to the chest and he never even paused. A 1911 in 9MM? Pretty broad pattern where adrenaline can also make hands shake. One of the reasons for the 45 why soldiers love the 45 has to do with the bullet itself tumbling once it hits flesh. Slow-motion videos of ballistics tests clearly illustrate this difference. I seem to recall reading in Rangemaster newsletter a month or two ago an FBI paper making the FMJ case. The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. I carry a S&W 9SDVE which I find can hold a good tight group. I am not going to address the whole military, spec-ops, battlefield blah blah. Its actually much more simple than most would like to think. interacts online and researches product purchases Shot placement is the only thing that matters a perfect shot placement with a .22 gets the job done where a miss with a 50 cal just causes a little blood. He is an NRA Pistol Instructor, a Colorado P.O.S.T. Ill take an M4, even with the M855 green-tip ammo that everyone says sucks, over an MP40 or a Thompson or any handgun any day of the week. I also could not afford the astronomical price (astronomical in my current budget) shops are now asking for a 4 inch Ruger Redhawk. 45 stopping power! I have yet to see any really legit fair and unbiased comparison of the 9mm and 45acp calibers. The officer fired three round from his 9mm Baretta 92F. Wow now this argument of 9 mm verses 45 acp is stupid. 15 -25 yards lol I can hit you in between the eyes with my co2 bb pistol. The FBI Training Division reported in May 2014 that officers, on average, strike an adversary with only 20 percent to 30 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident. FN DUH! Shot with 300 win mag at 500 yards. Not everyone is as capable or as comfortable at shooting a .45ACP as they are a 9mm. This translates to a simple formula for shooting success: practice, practice, practice. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please fill out our survey about your experience after being shot. 9mm Federal 150 grain Micro HST or Winchester 147 grain Ranger will expand 0.7", better than at least half the .45 defensive rounds out there (most common expansion is about 0.6", which is the same as many modern 9mm defense rounds), but there are also some.45 With all the discussion about hitting power of the big rounds, That is not the case with the new loads. I carried a Colt 1911 while serving in Korea. R45 Ammo Type: .45 ACP. Very smart Chris ! Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. Ballistics engineers try to balance speed, mass, and surface area to make the most effective round possible. The old adage If its good enough for the military, its good enough for me. is just nonsense today. The .223 generates a far larger shock wave, and penetrates farther, than the .22. The pistol with speed loaders will get me to the riffels then game over if not over yet. Much more likely is that you will be suddenly and unexpectedly attacked by a rapidly and unpredictably moving target with limited opportunities for counter attack. More damage with one shot. Handgun caliber and size is to each is own. I have found that I prefer the 9mm as an EDC concealed carry. Its hesitation that makes people miss. Head and neck shot were down on contact if the hit bone, flesh hit required another shot. I can shoot consistently accurately. 5.56 NATO in .223 Rem could result in failures. The difference can be seen with pistol rounds, as well. With training one would be more calm, but also a persons experience with conflict determines surety. Your shot placement will be perfect. Train! Anyone actually seen the effect of .45 jhp? | 1911Forum I daily now carry a 9 mm. I prefer the .45 ACP. You're free to republish or share any of our articles (either in part or in full), which are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License. But nearly worthless in real world situations. This is because, unless you get a central nervous system hit extremely difficult there is no physiological reason a target would become incapacitated until blood loss and extreme loss of blood pressure occurs. Which is better? In a military that accepts all genders and has lowered its physical fitness standards, Its not surprising that the 9mm was selected. Of course there are but in general the .45 with its bigger slower round is the better choice for knockdown power. The reason they went over to the +P was to punch through windshields. While typical SKS rifles do not qualify as assault weapons because they have a fixed magazine and stock and lack a pistol grip, Hodgkinsons gun would have met the criteria. .45 ACP vs 9mm: Which Is Better? - Gun Digest 45 Thats why were here right? I can say with great certainty that many animals dont just simply fall over and die. 158 gr 0.38" Special P and 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullets will penetrate both sides of a human skull. Bob. This is important because of permanent cavitation: The greater amount of tissue that is destroyed, the greater chance of incapacitation, all other factors being equal. I carry a 10auto. There have been several attempts by ballistics engineers to increase the wounding ability of a round. Using the cone attack gives you a low ammo condition that imposes disadvantage on attack rolls until you reload, and you have 2 reloads per day. Guns dont kill people. The 9mm is being adopted by military and law enforcement due to its higher capacity and lower price, as well as the reduced recoil which increases accuracy for many who find the .45 a bit much to handle. Wilderness Arena I can buy that. This is why you must choose your weapon carefully and train with it diligently. If it works for our troops no matter where it is made thats the one we want. I love it. Ive carried about every size round in my 71+ years of which 36 was an LEO. .45 ACP (230gr) One of the main reasons why military personnel and many LEOs made the switch to 9mm handguns was because of the deeper bullet penetration. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not exit from a human body. You get the idea. Whatever happened to the body armor piercing 5.7 round- 20 in the mag, one in the pipe n if that aint enough, 30 round mag works great for me!!!! Seems to me that American businesses take it in the chin enough already without this insult. The only way to ensure immediate incapacitation is to shoot the adversary in the brain or upper spinal cord (i.e., central nervous system). Handgun velocities top out at around 1,500 fps at the muzzle. Projectiles do not accelerate once they leave the muzzle. However, from close enough range you could manage. However, if the bullet lacks a JHP configuration, then its not doing as well as it could. Request product info from top Ammunition companies. If you carry, you owe it to everyone to be as proficient as possible. The programs, policies, and people driving positive change in Americas gun violence problem. Sorry for the rant. Lethality by Caliber: Whats the Best Handgun Caliber For You? I am older now, living in the city. This reasoning may not make sense to many of you, but it does to me. A 9 is a great backup. Sound familiar?? In their book, Defense of Self and Others, FBI firearms training experts John Hall and Urey Patrick (ret. Rounds were literally ranked on the basis of temporary cavity volume, with penetration and permanent cavity ignored. Of course shot placement is important. I spend a great deal of time on the range. Shooting survivors and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son expensive protein shakes after he lost much of his stomach. And speed causes expansion of bullets in a meat target. I know a LEO that works in Mendocino County CA. .45 in Nam and owned one for several years. Richard, I guess I have little feminine hands as I prefer to carry my 9mm for self-defense and on duty. The 45 acp caused significant damage to the human body. There were 3 casings in the bathroom and a couple of more in the living room 10-12 ft away. As stated before, this article isnt intended to solve the stopping power debate, but only to discuss the issues it involves. A true warriors gun. Its probably just psychological, but real evidence that the .45 is more effective. If I think it can get that bad where Im going. All of this leads directly to the question of handgun wounding factors: the effectiveness of a handgun, lethality by caliber, and stopping power are all important considerations when purchasing a firearm for self defense. From my time in the USMC, I saw a certain population fall in love with the 9mm bc of its easier to handle recoil. There is enough blood within the brain at any time to support conscious, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds even in the event of the destruction of the heart itself. Knock down power. damage So the moral of the story is: if youre 5 foot tall, and weigh a hundred pounds, the last thing you probably want to carry with you is a 1911. Because of the relatively slim chance of obtaining more than a single torso hit, the ammunition used must maximize the likelihood of immediate incapacitation. Take this for what its worth. A 4 inch Redhawk 45 colt loaded with 24 grains of H100 under a 335 grain Cast performance sledgehammer should be good against the largest carnivore Todd. Never held a weapon till boot camp. This is why officers typically carry as many shoulder weapons as possible in their cars. This is accomplished through simple physics; a larger bullet imparts more force into its target than a smaller one. When they enter the body, they spread out into a star-shaped pattern that enhances the damage caused by the wound channel. Anyway great comments to all. I was a PA-C in the military. At least to the U.S. Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command (MARSOC), there is no longer a question. F=MA is not applicable. So, yes, they are looking at it with the assumption that modern 9mm JHP bullets perform very similarly to .40s&w and .45acp, and thus will move toward 9mm loadings for sidearms. 7.62 leads the damage potential, followed by 5.56, followed by 45 and finally 9 mm. They said, ja, the 9mm kills people just fine, as long as you use it the way anyone with any sense uses a pistol caliber. Because head shots are rare and extremely difficult, and torso hits are likewise difficult and do not result in immediate incapacitation, choosing handgun bullets for officers is a critically important task. SGT SmallwoodUSMC/LTC SmallwoodUSArmy retired. Even a frontal gut shot must penetrate seven or more inches in slender adults for reliable incapacitation. On the other hand, a .22 that you can carry easily and put into operation quickly and shoot accurately is probably not a good defense gun/round because to do enough damage requires brain-shot accuracy with each shot. Is S&W so inferior that our domestic brand was eliminated? If the Government is involved in any way, money will change hands. It appears now we have had to Dumb Down our .45cal. Basically what I'm saying is the .50 is almost the same size as .45 and the tissue damage is near the same. With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes.. Never shoot a large caliber man with a small caliber weapon. Source: Explore. I can load my rounds as hot as I want, and often do. The wider bullet also creates a bigger cavity in whatever it passes through. If a projectile has features that would cause it to expand upon impact, U.S. Army engineers Donald Carlucci and Sidney Jacobson explained in the textbook Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition, it will cause greater trauma.. WebAnswer (1 of 16): It does vary, but most of the time a 5.56mm rifle cartridge will have much more destructive potential than a .45 caliber pistol load does. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter (i.e., recoil) and he too would be knocked down. Due to the heavy load some people with both types of weapons had malfunctions as the slide was moving too fast causing failure to feed. thats a monster, 67 about 260 and has hands as big as a base ball mitt, when he carries concealed, he goes with a Glock 43 which looks like a toy in his very large hands. Whats more, a temporary cavity measures volume that has been stretched, not volume that has been destroyed. Para Ordnance 12-45, officer size 1911 .45acp with 12 or 14 rd mags. Most rounds fired do not hit anyone at all. Cool story for real. Scratch expensive 45s. We had a good chuckle out of that one. Yes, yeas I have. Once you run out of rounds, youre done.

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