let's take up your invitation and move from Dionysus to early Christianity. No one lived there. First I'll give the floor to Brian to walk us into this remarkable book of his and the years of hard work that went into it, what drove him to do this. Again, if you're attracted to psychedelics, it's kind of an extreme thing, right? Read more about The Immortality Key by Brian Muraresku Making Sense by Sam Harris There he is. As much as we know about the mysteries of Eleusis. So now it's true that these heresy hunters show an interest in this love potion. The divine personage in whom this cult centered was the Magna Mater Deum who was conceived as the source of all life as well as the personification of all the powers of nature.\[Footnote:] Willoughby, Pagan Regeneration, p. 114.\ 7 She was the "Great Mother" not only "of all the gods," but of all men" as well. So, you know, I specifically wanted to avoid heavily relying on the 52 books of the [INAUDIBLE] corpus or heavily relying too much on the Gospel of Mary Magdalene and the evidence that's come from Egypt. Including, all the way back to Gobekli Tepe, which is why I mentioned that when we first started chatting. So throughout the book, you make the point that ancient beer and wine are not like our beer and wine. Oh, I hope I haven't offended you, Brian. Thank you. And so even within the New Testament you see little hints and clues that there was no such thing as only ordinary table wine. And I want to say to those who are still assembled here that I'm terribly sorry that we can't get to all your questions. Brought to you by Where are the drugs? Let me start with the view-- the version of it that I think is less persuasive. His aim when he set out on this journey 12 years ago was to assess the validity of a rather old, but largely discredited hypothesis, namely, that some of the religions of the ancient Mediterranean, perhaps including Christianity, used a psychedelic sacrament to induce mystical experiences at the border of life and death, and that these psychedelic rituals were just the tip of the iceberg, signs of an even more ancient and pervasive religious practice going back many thousands of years. Maybe I'm afraid I'll take the psychedelic and I won't have what is reported in the literature from Hopkins and NYU. #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Plants of the Gods: Hallucinogens, Healing, Culture and - TopPodcast Find ratings and reviews for the newest movie and TV shows. Now we're getting somewhere. And I'm happy to see we have over 800 people present for this conversation. The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name So I went fully down the rabbit hole. Which, if you think about it, is a very elegant idea. CHARLES STANG: OK. Now, I don't put too much weight into that. In fact, something I'm following up on now is the prospect of similar sites in the Crimea around the Black Sea, because there was also a Greek presence there. There have been breakthroughs, too, which no doubt kept Brian going despite some skepticism from the academy, to say the least. And maybe in these near-death experiences we begin to actually experience that at a visceral level. But in Pompeii, for example, there's the villa of the mysteries, one of these really breathtaking finds that also survived the ravage of Mount Vesuvius. The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian And what you're referring to is-- and how I begin the book is this beautiful Greek phrase, [SPEAKING GREEK]. I wish that an ancient pharmacy had been preserved by Mount Vesuvius somewhere near Alexandria or even in upper Egypt or in Antioch or parts of Turkey. He co-writes that with Gordon Wasson and Albert Hofmann, who famously-- there it is, the three authors. You obviously think these are powerful substances with profound effects that track with reality. I expect we will find it. We have other textual evidence. It's a big question for me. An actual spiked wine. Interesting. That was the question for me. When there's a clear tonal distinction, and an existing precedent for Christian modification to Pagan works, I don't see why you're resistant to the idea, and I'm curious . For me, that's a question, and it will yield more questions. And I think that's an important distinction to make. The continuity hypothesis of dreams suggests that the content of dreams are largely continuous with waking concepts and concerns of the dreamer. At Cambridge University he worked in developmental biolo. So how does Dionysian revelries get into this picture? And so how far should this investigation go? But I'm pressing you because that's my job. And so I don't think that psychedelics are coming to replace the Sunday Eucharist. Maybe I have that wrong. So I'll speak in language that you and our good colleague Greg [? . It's really quite simple, Charlie. CHARLES STANG: OK. Thank you, sir. You may have already noticed one such question-- not too hard. Do you think that the Christians as a nascent cult adapted a highly effective psycho technology that was rattling . He's joining us from Uruguay, where he has wisely chosen to spend his pandemic isolation. Whether there's a psychedelic tradition-- I mean, there are some suggestive paintings. Love potions, love charms, they're very common in the ancient. CHARLES STANG: We've really read Jesus through the lens of his Greek inheritors. First, I will provide definitions for the terms "pagan", "Christian", Let's move to early Christian. But it's not an ingested psychedelic. That's just everlasting. What is it about that formula that captures for you the wisdom, the insight that is on offer in this ancient ritual, psychedelic or otherwise? BRIAN MURARESKU: Good one. Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin: The Eleusinian Mysteries I think it's important you have made a distinction between what was Jesus doing at the Last Supper, as if we could ever find out. So what do we know about those rituals? This event is entitled, Psychedelics, The Ancient Religion With No Name? And keep in mind that we'll drop down into any one of these points more deeply. Hard archaeobotanical, archaeochemical data, I haven't seen it. That event is already up on our website and open for registration. I think the wine certainly does. So how exactly is this evidence of something relevant to Christianity in Rome or southern Italy more widely? Richard Evans Schultes and the Search for Ayahuasca 17 days ago Plants of the Gods: S3E10. That's only after Constantine. Mona Sobhani, PhD Retweeted. CHARLES STANG: So it may be worth mentioning, for those who are attending who haven't read the book, that you asked, who I can't remember her name, the woman who is in charge of the Eleusis site, whether some of the ritual vessels could be tested, only to discover-- tested for the remains of whatever they held, only to learn that those vessels had been cleaned and that no more vessels were going to be unearthed. Perhaps more generally, you could just talk about other traditions around the Mediterranean, North African, or, let's even say Judaism. Because even though it's a very long time ago, Gobekli Tepe, interestingly, has some things in common with Eleusis, like the worship of the grain, the possibility of brewing, the notion of a pilgrimage, and interaction with the dead. Israel's Exodus In Transdisciplinary Perspective: Text - Vdoc.pub It would have parts of Greek mysticism in it, the same Greek mysteries I've spent all these years investigating, and it would have some elements of what I see in paleo-Christianity. CHARLES STANG: I do, too. BRIAN MURARESKU: That's a good question. But it just happens to show up at the right place at the right time, when the earliest Christians could have availed themselves of this kind of sacrament. They are guaranteed an afterlife. So why refrain? So in my mind, it was the first real hard scientific data to support this hypothesis, which, as you alluded to at the beginning, only raises more questions. A profound knowledge of visionary plants, herbs, and fungi passed from one generation to the next, ever since the Stone Age? BRIAN MURARESKU: It just happens to show up. Get personalized recommendations, and learn where to watch across hundreds of streaming providers. He's talking about kind of psychedelic wine. And at the same time, when I see a thirst, especially in young people, for real experience, and I see so many Catholics who do not believe in transubstantiation, obviously, what comes to my mind is how, if at all, can psychedelics enhance faith or reinvent Christianity. I would love to see these licensed, regulated, retreat centers be done in a way that is medically sound and scientifically rigorous. So Brian, welcome. And besides that, young Brian, let's keep the mysteries mysteries. The Immortality Key, The Secret History of the Religion With No Name. And did the earliest Christians inherit the same secret tradition? A combination of psychoactive plants, including opium, cannabis, and nightshade, along with the remains of reptiles and amphibians all steeped in wine, like a real witch's brew, uncovered in this house outside of Pompeii. And nor did we think that a sanctuary would be one of the first things that we construct. 1,672. By which I mean that the Gospel of John suggests that at the very least, the evangelist hoped to market Christianity to a pagan audience by suggesting that Jesus was somehow equivalent to Dionysus, and that the Eucharist, his sacrament of wine, was equivalent to Dionysus's wine. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. He comes to this research with a full suite of scholarly skills, including a deep knowledge of Greek and Latin as well as facility in a number of European languages, which became crucial for uncovering some rather obscure research in Catalan, and also for sweet-talking the gatekeepers of archives and archaeological sites. Things like fasting and sleep deprivation and tattooing and scarification and, et cetera, et cetera. Then what was the Gospel of John, how did it interpret the Eucharist and market it, and so on. Then I'll ask a series of questions that follow the course of his book, focusing on the different ancient religious traditions, the evidence for their psychedelic sacraments, and most importantly, whether and how the assembled evidence yields a coherent picture of the past. So it's hard for me to write this and talk about this without acknowledging the Jesuits who put me here. And if you're a good Christian or a good Catholic, and you're consuming that wine on any given Sunday, why are you doing that? It pushes back the archaeology on some of this material a full 12,000 years. And so with a revised ancient history, in place Brian tacks back to the title of our series, Psychedelics and the Future of Religion. So the big question is, what kind of drug was this, if it was a drug? Jerry Brown wrote a good review that should be read to put the book in its proper place. Was there any similarity from that potion to what was drunk at Eleusis? Reviewed in the United States on January 29, 2023 This time around, we have a very special edition featuring Dr. Mark Plotkin and Brian C . A rebirth into what? Now that the pagan continuity hypothesis is defended, the next task is to show that the pagan and proto-Christian ritual sacraments were, in fact, psychedelicbrews. And now we have a working hypothesis and some data to suggest where we might be looking. Now you're a good sport, Brian. Or maybe in palliative care. So if Eleusis is the Fight Club of the ancient world, right, the first rule is you don't talk about it. And the truth is that this is a project that goes well beyond ancient history, because Brian is convinced that what he has uncovered has profound implications for the future of religion, and specifically, the future of his own religion, Roman Catholicism. Was Moses high? Studies linking religion and drugs gain traction Now, what's curious about this is we usually have-- Egypt plays a rather outsized role in our sense of early Christianity because-- and other adjacent or contemporary religious and philosophical movements, because everything in Egypt is preserved better than anywhere else in the Mediterranean. There's a good number of questions that are very curious why you are insisting on remaining a psychedelic virgin. And all along, I invite you all to pose questions to Brian in the Q&A function. And the quote you just read from Burkert, it's published by Harvard University Press in 1985 as Greek Religion. CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF WORLD RELIGIONS, Harvard Divinity School42 Francis Avenue, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02138 617.495.4495, my.hds |Harvard Divinity School |Harvard University |Privacy |Accessibility |Digital Accessibility | Trademark Notice |Reporting Copyright Infringements. What, if any, was the relationship between this Greek sanctuary-- a very Greek sanctuary, by the way-- in Catalonia, to the mysteries of Eleusis? This is true. This an absolute masterclass on why you must know your identity and goals before forming a habit, what the best systems are for habit. The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name I'm paraphrasing this one. He dared to ask this very question before the hypothesis that this Eleusinian sacrament was indeed a psychedelic, and am I right that it was Ruck's hypothesis that set you down this path all those many years ago at Brown? Do the drugs, Dr. Stang? I'm not sure many have. He draws on the theory of "pagan continuity," which holds that early Christianity adopted . It's interesting that Saint Ignatius of Antioch, in the beginning of the second century AD, refers to the wine of the Eucharist as the [SPEAKING GREEK], the drug of immortality. And there are legitimate scholars out there who say, because John wanted to paint Jesus in the light of Dionysus, present him as the second coming of this pagan God. With more than 35 years of experience in the field of Education dedicated to help students, teachers and administrators in both public and private institutions at school, undergraduate and graduate level. OK-- maybe one of those ancient beers. A rebirth into a new conception of the self, the self's relationship to things that are hard to define, like God. OK, now, Brian, you've probably dealt with questions like this. And I think it does hearken back to a genuinely ancient Greek principle, which is that only by fully experiencing some kind of death, a death that feels real, where you, or at least the you you used to identify with, actually slips away, dissolves. In this episode, Brian C. Muraresku, who holds a degree from Brown University in Latin, Greek and Sanskrit,  joins Breht to discuss his fascinating book "The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name", a groundbreaking dive into the use of hallucinogens in ancient Greece, the Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, the role of the Eucharist in early Christianity, the . Pagan Continuity and Christian Attitudes: When did Paganism End? Maybe there's some residual fear that's been built up in me. That's the promise in John's gospel, in John 6:54-55, that I quote in the book. And she happened to find it on psilocybin. He calls it a drug against grief in Greek, [SPEAKING GREEK]. You can see that inscribed on a plaque in Saint Paul's monastery at Mount Athos in Greece. Again, how did Christianity take hold in a world with such a rich mystical tradition? Now I understand and I appreciate the pharmaceutical industry's ability to distribute this as medicine for those who are looking for alternatives, alternative treatments for depression and anxiety and PTSD and addiction and end of life distress. #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More by The Tim Ferriss Show I mean, something of symbolic significance, something monumental. And this is at a time when we're still hunting and gathering. #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Now, I have no idea where it goes from here, or if I'll take it myself. It's not just Cana. And I want to say that this question that we've been exploring the last half hour about what all this means for the present will be very much the topic of our next event on February 22, which is taking up the question of psychedelic chaplaincy. It's not to say that there isn't evidence from Alexandria or Antioch. BRIAN MURARESKU: I don't-- I don't claim too heavily. Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries There is evidence that has been either overlooked or perhaps intentionally suppressed. In the Classics world, there's a pagan continuity hypothesis with the very origin of Christianity, and many overt references to Greek plays in the Gospel of John. So this is the tradition, I can say with a straight face, that saved my life. Rachel Peterson, who's well known to Brian and who's taken a lead in designing the series. If your history is even remotely correct, that would have ushered in a very different church, if Valentinus's own student Marcus and the Marcosians were involved in psychedelic rituals, then that was an early road not taken, let's say. And so that opened a question for me. And I started reading the studies from Pat McGovern at the University of Pennsylvania. Not because it was brand new data. I really tried. Because for many, many years, you know, Ruck's career takes a bit of a nosedive. What does it mean to die before dying? Those of you who don't know his name, he's a professor at the University of Amsterdam, an expert in Western esotericism. BRIAN MURARESKU: I look forward to it, Charlie. Liked by Samuel Zuschlag. What was the real religion of the ancient Greeks? BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. Now, the great scholar of Greek religion, Walter Burkert, you quote him as musing, once-- and I'm going to quote him-- he says, "it may rather be asked, even without the prospect of a certain answer, whether the basis of the mysteries, they were prehistoric drug rituals, some festival imp of immortality which, through the expansion of consciousness, seemed to guarantee some psychedelic beyond." And my favorite line of the book is, "The lawyer in me won't sleep until that one chalice, that one container, that one vessel comes to light in an unquestionable Christian context.". And so in some of these psychedelic trials, under the right conditions, I do see genuine religious experiences. The continuity between pagan and Christian cult nearby the archaeological area of Naquane in Capo di Ponte. So Dionysus is not the god of alcohol. Because my biggest question is, and the obvious question of the book is, if this was happening in antiquity, what does that mean for today? I don't know why it's happening now, but we're finally taking a look. I wonder if you're familiar with Wouter Hanegraaff at the University of Amsterdam. I just sense a great deal of structure and thoughtfulness going into this experience. Despite its popular appeal as a New York Times Bestseller, TIK fails to make a compelling case for its grand theory of the "pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist" due to recurring overreach and historical distortion, failure to consider relevant research on shamanism and Christianity, and presentation of speculation as fact The Tim Ferriss Show | iHeart So it is already happening. The Tim Ferriss Show Podcast | Free Listening on Podbean App But I think there's a decent scientific foothold to begin that work. 36:57 Drug-spiked wine . Not in every single case, obviously. And I think sites like this have tended to be neglected in scholarship, or published in languages like Catalan, maybe Ukrainian, where it just doesn't filter through the academic community. But you will be consoled to know that someone else will be-- I will be there, but someone else will be leading that conversation. So after the whole first half of the book-- well, wait a minute, Dr. Stang. 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